Zune - The MS "iPod Killer"

[ChemicalWarrior]

Originally Posted by Harbinger

Chem, just face it, the iPod does what it does well. If you want feature bloat then feel free to use another DAP player. The iPod and the ITMS are easy to use, play music well and have a "cool" factor. You may bash Apple and the Ipod but somehow I think their market research is better than something you could come up with.

As far as why you don't like AAC? AAC is easily one of the best, most lossless file formats available today. Hands down better than WMA and FLAC? yeah I'm sure the MS DAP will support it...

Chem you said "MS could offer a converting software, people would use it". Umm, yeah.. wouldn't that require MS to break the DRM? Honestly I would expect more out of you as far as arguments go.

Tell you what let's just revisit this in a year and we'll see what happened.

So burning your OWN music to a CD and then ripping it back on your computer is illegal? This is one of the most common ways to get around the DRM of the iTunes store. The software could simply do this without actually burning it to a disc, maybe that is illegal but technically its the same thing minus actually wasting a disc.

Most lossless? You're either a lossy format or a lossless, FLAC is a lossless, its actually a compression format and not exactly a codec, the audio is completely the same as before but you often see upwards of a 60% size reduction..... without tons of legal tangle.

In a year? It'll take much longer than that for a MS based player to even get going.

Lopo, there are actually much larger companies than Apple already trying to take them on, Toshiba, Asus, etc. Size means little, its brand name. Doubt it or not, people must trust MS for something or else they wouldnt have been able to be the largest software company in the world, and constantly making moves into the hardware business.

[Harbinger]

Yeah I know about the analogue hole, but you said MS would offer a tool to do it. Do you really think users are going to sit there and burn cd after cd to get their music on to a MS DAP? lol!

Yeah yeah Chem I meant AAC offers better quality than WMA. As far as the lossless thing I guess I should have stipulated ALAC =\

It's humorous that you want less "legal tangle" while at the same time support Microsoft.

Yeah in a year, Chem I have no idea why you are such a MS fanboy but it's entertaining

[{OF}Blong]

Originally Posted by LoPo

blong man, wtf. We are talking about an MP3 PLAYER, not a media center.

you are missing my point. My point isnt about media centers. My point is Nothing of micrsofts plays almost all available codec's. THat is the point I am trying to make. I have a lot of videos with different codec's (though its probably only like 6 or 7 different codec's) that media player can not play. I believe (I could be wrong lopo you would be the one that could tell me) that creatives mp4 players play more than one type of codec unlike the ipod?

Sorry trying to get the right words. I guess I am trying to say is that creative is a good all around player in that it can play multiple codec's whereas nothing of microsfts products can do that? At least I gather that much from creative's mp4 player like the one you got (I dont know as well I dont own one thus your expertise on this would be nice lol). Obviously this zenu or whatever it is isnt out yet so I cant pass judgement but I have a feeling it wont play much of any formats. maybe you will be able to upgrade it to play certain codec's I dont know.

Sorry if I dont make myself clear. I tend to do that as I know what I am thinking but have a hard time putting it into words that make sense.

[{OF}Blong]

Originally Posted by ChemicalWarrior

So burning your OWN music to a CD and then ripping it back on your computer is illegal? This is one of the most common ways to get around the DRM of the iTunes store. The software could simply do this without actually burning it to a disc, maybe that is illegal but technically its the same thing minus actually wasting a disc.

Most lossless? You're either a lossy format or a lossless, FLAC is a lossless, its actually a compression format and not exactly a codec, the audio is completely the same as before but you often see upwards of a 60% size reduction..... without tons of legal tangle.

In a year? It'll take much longer than that for a MS based player to even get going.

Lopo, there are actually much larger companies than Apple already trying to take them on, Toshiba, Asus, etc. Size means little, its brand name. Doubt it or not, people must trust MS for something or else they wouldnt have been able to be the largest software company in the world, and constantly making moves into the hardware business.

people trust MS for ease of use thats it. How easy is it for me to use and comprehend? Why do you think things like linux/macos/freebsd are not very big? Because they arent easy for the avg user to understand and use let alone instal (though you can get computers preinstalled with any os).


*edit I am talking your avg home user not business side of things. I dont know why most business choose what they do. Maybe for some its $$$ others its what they have always known. other than that I havent a clue. I know my company uses MS because its easy to validate (yeah gay validation we have to validate that MS is secure and does what its supposed to do lol).

[Harbinger]

Interesting read from what is obviously a pro Apple site.

http://www.tuaw.com/2006/07/22/on-im...nd-experience/

[LoPo]

Originally Posted by {OF}Blong

you are missing my point. My point isnt about media centers. My point is Nothing of micrsofts plays almost all available codec's. THat is the point I am trying to make. I have a lot of videos with different codec's (though its probably only like 6 or 7 different codec's) that media player can not play. I believe (I could be wrong lopo you would be the one that could tell me) that creatives mp4 players play more than one type of codec unlike the ipod?

Sorry trying to get the right words. I guess I am trying to say is that creative is a good all around player in that it can play multiple codec's whereas nothing of microsfts products can do that? At least I gather that much from creative's mp4 player like the one you got (I dont know as well I dont own one thus your expertise on this would be nice lol). Obviously this zenu or whatever it is isnt out yet so I cant pass judgement but I have a feeling it wont play much of any formats. maybe you will be able to upgrade it to play certain codec's I dont know.

Sorry if I dont make myself clear. I tend to do that as I know what I am thinking but have a hard time putting it into words that make sense.

But you are arguing using solely Media Center/Media center Powered devices.... so, while it could be thought to be valid, really isn't. PC based systems != DAP

The Zune will use the playforsure tag, which most music download services will have, except iTunes. Meaning it will play what you download.

The current iPod video is a waste of money. It only plays one format. While the Creative Zen Vision:M plays just about anything out there. I ran into one particular format that was a webcast download that it couldn't play. However, I wasn't using the included converter tool. I've played divx, straight avi, mpg, asf, and wmv's fine on it w/o conversion. I have the Office Season 2 on it right now, makes cardio time at the gym fly by.

[Soul]

Originally Posted by {OF}Blong

people trust MS for ease of use thats it. How easy is it for me to use and comprehend? Why do you think things like linux/macos/freebsd are not very big? Because they arent easy for the avg user to understand and use let alone instal (though you can get computers preinstalled with any os).


*edit I am talking your avg home user not business side of things. I dont know why most business choose what they do. Maybe for some its $$$ others its what they have always known. other than that I havent a clue. I know my company uses MS because its easy to validate (yeah gay validation we have to validate that MS is secure and does what its supposed to do lol).

I can't believe you lumped macos in with linux and freebsd - I am going to guess us haven't used OSX - I don't believe there is a simpler OS.

[{OF}Blong]

Originally Posted by Soul

I can't believe you lumped macos in with linux and freebsd - I am going to guess us haven't used OSX - I don't believe there is a simpler OS.

I have used the first versions of Mac os not the latest versions so my point may no longer be valid with macs as it has been probably 8 years since I last used a mac system. I am not saying they were hard to use back then but you are right I shouldnt have included mac in with linux and free bsd


Lopo at least you get my point lol . as for playforsure you already knew I didnt know about that one so makes sense that this ms contraption should play just about everything . I still like creative's look for their mp4 players lol.

[ChemicalWarrior]

Originally Posted by Harbinger

Interesting read from what is obviously a pro Apple site.

http://www.tuaw.com/2006/07/22/on-im...nd-experience/

Hmm, I think the simple layout of the iPod's UI is one of its better benefits, along with other DAPs though. A simple UI is alwasy better, but it doesnt mean you have to lack off features. The comparison to a cell phone really makes me cring. Cell phones are on of the worst devices out there when talking about a UI.

Originally Posted by Harbinger

Yeah I know about the analogue hole, but you said MS would offer a tool to do it. Do you really think users are going to sit there and burn cd after cd to get their music on to a MS DAP? lol!

Yeah yeah Chem I meant AAC offers better quality than WMA. As far as the lossless thing I guess I should have stipulated ALAC =\

It's humorous that you want less "legal tangle" while at the same time support Microsoft.

Yeah in a year, Chem I have no idea why you are such a MS fanboy but it's entertaining :)

There would be ways to get around not having to burn discs, there are always ways to get around something. If its legal or not is something else though.

There are many better and FREE codecs out there, Ogg Vorbis for lossy and FLAC for lossless for example. Many DAPs out there already include playback for these file types. Why is it not on the iPod when there is absoluty no legal tangle to have it? (Want further proof Apple holds back the iPod on purpose? By using a modified firmware such as RockBox you can get FLAC playback on an iPod, so why is it not included by default?). I'm not saying the MS Zune will include such a thing, but many DAPs do include support for those.

Why do you come to the conclusion that I'm a MS fanboy? The simple fact is the iPod is not the end all be all device. Its got many major flaws and I'd love to see a company throw a ton of resources at a DAP to make Apple actually support the rest of the world when it comes to codecs, features, etc. Perfect example is FM radio on the iPod, where the hell has it been? Many DAPs have support it for ages while the iPod has continued to go on without it.

I like competition in the market, its a good thing and it imporves products and lowers prices. So in this case, I hope MS comes out of the gates and gains some share of the market quick so Apple makes a better product.

[Harbinger]

You make some good points there Chem and for the most part I agree with them.

I also believe that this market space needs competition if not for anything but to drive Apple. I was sorry to see the Rio discontinued so hopefully the Zune can fill the gap and I imagine a bit more.

There is an FM receiver available for the iPod, though it is an official Apple add-on and not bundled with the iPod.

Yes there are "ways around" almost anything. However no way in hell would MS condone the circumventing of DRM. A small percentage of geeks could do it, sure but that makes up a very small percentage of the user base. That being said I can guarantee you that Apple will not market it's FairPlay technology to any third party.

Chem you asked So "burning your OWN music to a CD and then ripping it back on your computer is illegal?" Believe it or not, it is illegal to do so in the USA. You can thank the DMCA for that which is BTW a United States copyright law, you do live in the US? Here is a direct quote from the DMCA "
`(a) VIOLATIONS REGARDING CIRCUMVENTION OF TECHNOLOGICAL PROTECTION MEASURES- (1) No person shall circumvent a technological protection measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title." Does it suck, yep but hey you asked... If your bored feel free to read the act yourself" http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c105:2:./temp/~c105IgdQqw:e13103:"

Yes, fair use allows you to legally back up your digital assets, however NOT if it involves breaking DRM. Quite the paradox, eh?

One thing that we haven't really discussed here is the ITMS's domination of the legal downloads market. Of course music/videos downloaded from the ITMS only play on one player....
Once again we need to leave the geek out of this and look at Joe Consumer who wants their product just to work. Oh yeah and look cool! Why do you think so many iPod owners use the crappy ear buds that come with the iPod?

One thing that could really open up the marketplace would be a law suit against Apple for unfair business practices.I could see them being forced to license FairPlay down the road. Of course I'm no lawyer and look at what happened in France where they did in fact try and do just that. They did mange to pass the iPod law though it did come out a little watered down. If more such actions are taken against Apple it will most likely be in Europe and not the USA.

lol@Blong! Saying that the first Mac OS was hard to use would be like saying Windows 3.11 had a clunky user interface!

BTW Chem I love having these discussions with you, never dull .